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Talk:Marcia Hrodberht
Again, feedback is welcome. However, please be sure that you have read the article first and have not misunderstood anything.Green47 (talk) 07:33, November 15, 2017 (UTC) A significant amount of the early background of this character appears to be an almost word for word copy of the Handmaids Tale, with 'Jolram' effectively just Gilead. It's not very good writing to basically write Offred but as an Imperial Preacher. --Imposter101 (talk) 11:13, July 29, 2018 (UTC) This is inspired from The Handmaid's Tale, yes. As stated on my userpage: Finally, a few ideas come from an art class from a library. I came to the library looking for a certain book but instead got into pencil drawing. As a guide, I picked up the one book I knew would be full of art- a Warhammer Fantasy rulebook. With both Warhammer ''and the other work of fiction on my mind, I soon came up with a new idea. Also, when detailing the hobby to the people at the art class, I mentioned a certain real-life politician as an example of a character. The other work of fiction's influence and the real life individual both combine to create the character of Marcia Hrodberht. (From November 11 2017) Marcia is a fusion of Ofglen/Emily and Jacob Rees-Mogg. I should add that Kogoz Rezmug is also Jacob Rees-Mogg. In the sketch class sample session, I ended up drawing a Bloody Rose Sister helping a Handmaid up while a Deathwatch Ultramarine kills a Guardian. The idea was both catharsis and to make a point to myself: Gilead is so disgusting that the Imperium- 'the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable'- would rather sacrifice it to a Hive Fleet and then initiate Exterminatus than let it continue. The Bloody Rose colour scheme (red armour, white helmets) also inspired this: There is a canon Sororitas Order that look like Handmaids. The odd thing is that nobody brought this up sooner, especially as two of the images are blatant. I think the fact that nobody objected made me think that everything was OK. I'd changed the names, avoided the 'Of' names, and kept things vague to avoid it being a crossover. I guess congratulations are in order for being the first to spot this and mention it.Green47 (talk) 12:09, July 29, 2018 (UTC) The Imperium is infinitely worse than anywhere the Handmaids Tale, which is effectively an Americanised version of historical religious societies. It seems absurd the Imperium would consider such a place 'horrible', and would likely not care about the conditions there. The Imperium is described in the 8th edition rulebook as a place where, ''"Uncounted billions are in squalor labour and pain in each day of their adult lives, then die in the streets, unsung and unmourned. They are blessed to do so, for in this way, they serve the Emperor. There is no greater calling." '' Large tracts of the Imperium are taken up by planets where people live in single end housing stacked atop each other. Poverty is the norm, discrimination against abhumans is rife. Cadia, Fenksworld, Iocanthos, Necromunda, Malfi (the Calixis Sector) are all utter misery. If you think 'sexism' is a thing the Imperium would care about, Krieg effectively does the same as Gilead, where 'Vitae Wombs' are used to ensure women can breed large stocks of troops to be sent off to die. This is infinitely worse than the Handmaids Tale. It seems ridiculous the Imperium would ever consider a society like Gilead to be 'bad'. Maybe heretical, for worshiping the wrong God. --Imposter101 (talk) 12:32, July 29, 2018 (UTC) OK, first my awareness of how ruthless the Imperium is. You saw the story on fanfiction.net so you are aware of my Quora account. *I suggested that the Imperium may incorporate Oceania from 1984 for the propaganda skills. Here. *Pointed out that the Imperium is 'paranoid, ruthless, and oppressive', that 'some planets that are giant farms and some that are your average horrible, stereotype council estate multiplied by 10000 or more'. Here . *Pointed out that the Imperium uses 'Hanging, Shooting, Flaying, Beating, Flogging, Branding, Starvation', forces some criminals to be suicide bombers, detailed an encounter where someone thought a list from ''The Handmaid's Tale was from 40k, and finally brought up the possibility that the Imperium uses FGM on Sororitas Orders with a celibacy vow (and was fortunately disproven). Here . *Said that if a self-confessed heretical Guardsman was not executed immediately, he'd get 'cold showers, flogging, psychic torment, several months chained up underground,' or, if just a crisis of faith, 'extra sermons, one-on-one tuition, and perhaps temporarily recruit him into an Inquisitor’s staff to show him how correct the Imperial Creed is', with said tutor being Karamazov. Here . *Compared the Mechanicus to fanatics of the Islamic, Jewish, and Christian faiths. Here . *Gave the possibility of a female attempting to join the Astartes: 'Alternatively, you could have a girl disguising herself as a boy to try and join the Space Marines. She manages to fool the doctors, she gets through the tests… and then dies painfully when they start the genetic modifications. Moral of the story: Join the Guard!' Here . *Explained the USP of 40k: 'This will be hard, but most dystopias are about the protagonists struggling against an oppressive regime. In 40k, they are ''the oppressive regime.' Here . *'There are no savage and civilised peoples; there are only different cultures. (Strongly Disagree) ''There are feral worlds and civilised worlds. The alien is always savage, humanity in general always civilised.' 'Although the electronic age makes official surveillance easier, only wrongdoers need to be worried. (Agree) As Fyodor Karamazov would put it, everyone is guilty of something.' 'It is a waste of time to try to rehabilitate some criminals. (Strongly Agree) ''The worse heretics get a new job: Servitor.' 'Abortion, when the woman’s life is not threatened, should always be illegal. (Disagree) ''Infants can be a liability. There are plenty of babies, like there are plenty of soldiers in the Imperial Guard. Some are expendable.'. Here . *Meanwhile, I commented: 'Actually, I want Imperial characters to be relatable people with modern values precisely because they’re not Nazis. Having the sort of people a reader could meet in the street or work alongside reinforces this point highlighted by the Imperial War Museum: "The idea that the Germans were naturally predisposed more than any other race to committing genocide, the idea that the Cambodians had some secret germ inside them or that the Rwandese did, is absolute nonsense. '''We are all capable of it'."' Right, now that's over, don't even think about telling me how awful the Imperium is. I already know. Now for gender, not just me but also other users, other experts: *Sexual assault could be considered heresy, that there are extremely patriarchal worlds, and extremely matriarchal ones, and while there are hiccups, life for Imperial women is actually better than for those on modern Earth. Here . *There's similar answers on other questions. The consensus is that the Imperium treats women & men equally badly, therefore equally well. *We also agree that Krieg is an anomaly by all definitions. There's also the case that the Imperial task force that encountered the Gilead planet in the story had a large contingent of female soldiers. While the Sisters of Battle could be considered the Handmaids of 40k, they wouldn't be happy about this. Nor would the Space Wolves or the Salamanders, considering how surprisingly humanitarian they can be. They choose to leave the world to the Tyranids and initiate Exterminatus because they decided it was easier and more worthwhile to use Jolram as bait for the Hive Fleet than waste time & energy conquering the planet, and instead snatch a few worthwhile people to rehabilitate. It appears I neglected to include this, which is my fault, but now we know. Quite simply, Jolram was unlucky in that the first Imperial task force to meet them consisted of relatively liberal elements, albeit liberals perfectly fine with genocide, mutilation, and horrible, lingering death. Also recall that the article itself points out that the Adeptus Arbites reminded Marcia of Jolram and the theme is that she's gone from one oppressive theocracy to another, from victim to enabler. Several times the article points out that her actions could be considered hypocritical. Green47 (talk) 15:57, July 29, 2018 (UTC) “OK, first my awareness of how ruthless the Imperium is. You saw the story on fanfiction.net so you are aware of my Quora account.” I was aware you had one. I didn’t read your posts or have any interest in them. Most of this isn’t even relevant to a my points, and largely appears to be a lot of unsourced conjecture. I also wouldn't consider ‘Quora’ to be a good source - as the site is filled to the brim with pseuds who do not provide sources. “Right, now that's over, don't even think about telling me how awful the Imperium is.” There’s no need to be rude. Your exceedingly arrogant attitude makes me feel it’s pointless to offer any feedback as you seem unwilling to accept any sort of critique. ‘Experts’ Experts provide proper sources that aren’t their own opinions or conjecture. Experts also usually don’t define themselves as such either. 40k as a whole isn’t some sort of well written narrative with a solid sense of canon. It’s largely authors own interpretations of basic material and characters. The wiki has always held that the rulebooks and codexes come before Black Library content and Video Games. And said rulebooks largely depict 40k as an absurd, over the top autocratic theocracy in the style of Brazil or Judge Dredd. The point overall is that the article isn’t very well written and does not feel very ‘40k’. It also comes off, due to this, as if you do not have a fantastic understanding of the lore or tone of the 40k universe. --Imposter101 (talk) 16:27, July 29, 2018 (UTC) Right, you are beginning to sound libelous. As I stated on my other profile: ''I will engage in debate but do not tolerate libel or slander against anyone. I speak only the truth and expect all others to speak the truth around me. First, what I write on there is not unsourced. Most of it comes from The Imperial Munitorum Manual and The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer. Others include from Ravenor, a GW Commissar Miniature, and online GW information about various characters. In the case of this article, the novels & games had more substantial information that rulebooks and codexes. Incidentally, the descriptions I gave of hive worlds, technology, religious extremists, and agri worlds all come from rulebooks. It's also worth noting that there are several themes contained in the article that have become consistent across source material of all kinds. Second, 'expert' refers to you, not me. You should recall that I called you an expert when discussing the use of content outside the wiki. The categories- other users, other experts- puts me in other users, not other experts. I will admit this was an error by me. Third, I have discussed this with others outside the wiki and while there are varying views on the quality of the article itself (I now write shorter articles), they agree that it feels 40k. Are you saying that Arbitrators opening fire on protests, Space Marines ripping heretics apart, and the Ecclesiarchy leading a mob of religious extremists against a heretical hive (Proa) aren't 40k? Is it also the case that a Confessor hunting down her heretical son with the help of Vindicare Assassins and Arco-Flagellants is not 40k? Or that she shares the same characteristics as Karamazov and treats everyone brought to her as guilty? Sounds to me like you didn't do what I said at the top of the talk page: However, please be sure that you have read the article first and have not misunderstood anything. Fourth, you were the one who chose to talk down to me. You were the one who chose to lecture me about something I already know about. Therefore, I was perfectly entitled to say “Right, now that's over, don't even think about telling me how awful the Imperium is.” Incidentally, you've done it again, this time talking about Judge Dredd. Fifth, taking criticism: Talk:Order of the Sacred Grove. The discussion with Remos had me say 'Having said all that, I can see your point. Ultimately, this is intended to be an Order dedicated to the defense of Agri worlds. I want to keep this article going, so perhaps there is a way to make them more oriented towards protecting farmers? May I also ask if there are any good points in the article?' He had nothing to say after I corrected some of his misinterpretations. If he had, I'd have taken his comments into account, but he didn't give any more critiques because the article was 'quite fine' in his words and his only problem was the links to Catachan, which he realized were valid. There have been no other critiques of my articles until now so I can't provide any further examples, though Remos suggested I should separate out the Avrolanc article. I haven't, but I was able to communicate with some element of civility because I could see that Remos was trying to be helpful. You'll also notice that I was civil when this discussion started, but then you decided to talk down to me. To put it another way, he was right, you are wrong. You'll also remember that when you said that Hashut & Necoho were not allowed, I accepted that without fuss and informed you of an article referring to the Horned Rat. Offsite, when 2 people disputed my idea that the Arbites should have their own codex, I discussed it with them using sources. The only valid critique is 'not well written'. Well, this was the second article I made and my writing style has now changed to be more concise and focused, I think. Perhaps I should do a rewrite. However, the actual content is all valid. You have not disproven the claim that the Imperium might decide to leave a Gilead-type planet to the Tyranids and then wipe out both. To think that I was planning to leave quietly by the end of this week, having written the Kogoz article. I'll definitely be gone by the end of Friday, and I was planning to slip out of the door without anyone noticing or caring. Green47 (talk) 07:35, July 30, 2018 (UTC) And another thing: Unless you withdraw the claim that what I write is unsourced, this discussion will not go any further.--Green47 (talk) 07:51, July 30, 2018 (UTC) I don't want to be mean, but this is not a good article. There are just too many things that seem out of place. From the Mannerisms of the Inquisition, to them just abandoning an Imperial world cause they enslave people. The Imperium enslaves countless trillions of people, out of necessity. Many toil until they die in factories, or are thrown against the enemies of man by the billions. The idea that the Inqusition would bat an eye at Sexisim or Homophobia, when they have countless xenos species destroying countless imperial worlds, is kinda insulting to read. Particularly since we don't really know the Imperiums opinion on the matter of Homosexuality. My opinion is they probably don't care because you are going to be eaten by a Ork on your first mission for the Guard. And while the "Uplifting Primer" does have a lot of punishments for citizens of the Imperium, most involve dereliction of duty, cowardice, failure to show reverance to holy things, and heresy. Unless the Leaders of the world were accused of Worshipping Chaos, in which case they would have just killed the entire planet just to be sure, I don't see the Inqusition, let alone the Astartes really bothering to punish people for something they deem as Trivial as slavery. When the Mechanicus does far worse to it's slaves, often just lobotomizing them and using them as a drone to scrub toilets forever. And the mention of Gaming Consoles or Magazines is just....No. I don't think their would be a Market for video games when most people spend most of their days working, having some food, the trying to sleep until they have to work again, and the Idea of Magazines...what would they put in them, that isn't just Imperial Creed Propaganda. Not like they would report the news of other planets. All in all, just the idea that Handmaidens tale is anything as bad as what any other planet in 40k is, is Laughable. Women being enslaved as breeders and gays being mutilated, isn't going to be any worse, than the Necromundan who is being stalked by Giant Spiders as he goes about his day, or the Cadian guardsman who spends all day knowing that the second a battle starts, he and thousands others will die in seconds. Blackdamp (talk) 02:57, July 31, 2018 (UTC) Well, you're not Imposter, so the withdrawal condition doesn't apply to you. Considering that Remos reads every article going as far as I can tell and he never had a problem, and that I was planning to leave by the end of this week, this is getting beyond belief. Working with the easiest issue first: There is an in-universe TV series: Cain's Heroes. Therefore, there's room for other media. Uses for video games: Training (though these are strictly software simulations rather than games), Indoctrination (Special Force 2 , used by Hezbollah against Israel), and simply winding down. It is acknowledged by the Primer that the Guard simply cannot fill all of its soldiers' time even with lectures, training, and drill. I should add that there are plenty of Imperial worlds which are comparable to modern Earth, where the Imperium has barely any presence at all. Magazines? Let me see, they could have all kinds of things. New Guard regiments raised, victories, profiles of leading Imperial officials, and more propaganda. Propaganda can take many forms, from written to film. Even a crossword can be propaganda, and it is known that Nazi schools used maths questions as indoctrination. Second, the world is not Imperial. Why would they greet an Imperial World with 'Welcome to humanity'. This is just a world they came across. And yes, the Imperium has abandoned worlds in the past, especially due to Tyranids . I should also add, thanks to Cain again, that we do know the Imperium's views on homosexuality: they allow it completely. Why wouldn't they? Also, this mission was carried out by Space Marines and Sisters of Battle, not Guardsmen. This is because, as stated clearly, these troops were already with the Inquisition on another mission. Your point about Guardsmen is also wrong, but irrelevant. Many Guardsmen survive their first mission, and don't believe they'll be eaten by an Ork or anything similar. Third, just because a country does one thing does not mean it won't be disgusted by another country doing a similar thing. The British Empire was known at the time to be ruthless and brutal in dealing with native populations, but was still shocked by the way Belgium treated Congo. If nothing else, it may find looking at itself disgusting. {Although not stated, my original idea had the Imperial force being angered because ''Jolram did not worship Chaos nor was xenos infiltration the power behind the regime. It was purely human and had no excuse. The other things- female oppression and gender treachery- are in the same category. Primitive worlds have an excuse, allegedly Civilised ones may have one based on their culture, but a idiotic regime taking power and then imposing such rules has no excuse, especially as the Imperial biologists would be able to find that their reasoning is flawed.} Fourth, an Inquisitor can declare anything, anyone, or anywhere they like as heretics. It is also pointed out that the main Imperium is not sexist at all- it even, as shown by Dan Abnett, approves of a wife to join the PDF and the husband to stay at home. Worlds vary, but the main one doesn't. In fact, the sheer amount of women in high or at least respectable positions without an obvious glass ceiling (Greyfax, every female Commissar, governor, etc) suggests the Imperium is less sexist than modern Earth. The only apparent glass ceiling is the rank of Lady General- and there is evidence that Jenit Sulla, the so-called first Lady General, was not the first Lady General by a long way. I noticed that you have a lot of 'I think' and 'my opinion'. On the other hand, I have evidence. As for you feeling, insulted, that's your problem. This article had not caused anyone any problems for 8 months. Further, as per the words Gvsualan (a Memory Alpha admin), no comment is the best comment. I decided to interpret that as 2 weeks without comment. Since, as stated, Remos checks everything, I had to assume this article was satisfactory. Green47 (talk) 09:26, July 31, 2018 (UTC) Well... I just think that the "homophobic" part in government's description is a bit redundant, it feels like you want to bring the sexuality politics as part of your story, when 40k hasn't really bothered with them. Also using all these canon regiments feels a bit of name-dropping. Otherwise, I don't really see a problem with this article. --Remos talk 11:48, July 31, 2018 (UTC) I apologise for any previous comments I made that caused offence, because I now understand that this content is canonical in the way Games Workshop intends all of its work to be canonical. Everything is told by an unreliable narrator. I also have to accept that I can pick and choose what I like and don't like, as Gav Thorpe once said "It is the job of authors and games developers to illuminate and inspire, not to dictate. Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesn’t make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike." So the interpretation of this article that I am allowed to reach for myself as outlined by Games Workshop itself is thus: that the in-universe source for this information is a remembrancer who embellished some of the details to suit his own narrative and that the quality simply doesn't matter. --Imposter101 (talk) 19:52, July 31, 2018 (UTC) I'm just giving my Opinion, I'm not saying anything is outright against Canon. I just think most of it is not in my General tastes, or moreover that I think a lot of it may be poorly executed in my Opinion. Blackdamp (talk) 23:42, July 31, 2018 (UTC) In turn: Remos, I see your point. I think I'll remove the 'homophobic' word as it's pretty clear that the government has this attitude. I suppose I could also remove the Guard regiment names and replace them with things like 'a Rough Rider regiment' or 'an anti-Ork Task Force' Imposter, I'll take what you said as a withdrawal. However, there is one thing still bothering me, which magnified the bad attitude I already had when there was an incident on this article on Sunday before this incident. I cannot see how anyone could not see that 'OK, first my awareness of how ruthless the Imperium is,' the Quora list, and 'Right, now that's over, don't even think about telling me how awful the Imperium is. I already know,' are the same point. You make them sound separate and used it to accuse me of being arrogant, when it's plainly obvious that I was simply annoyed because I felt patronised and was providing evidence to show I knew the subject. Your response made me even more angry because I felt that you were now ignoring evidence, especially as you then brought up ''Judge Dredd. As far as I was concerned, you chose to ignore evidence that I did not need to be lectured just so you could lecture me again. Blackdamp, this is the most difficult of all. Yes, your opinion is valid, though you sound as though you only read the first few paragraphs, not the whole article, which calls the value into question. However, you'll notice that reviews typically have comments- a review of the review- so that if someone criticises the work, the supporters can defend the work, especially if they feel the review is misleading or ill-informed. Here , there are several reviews that give a book one-star simply because of the title, despite the fact that the book explains the reasoning. The supporters of the book quite rightly give those reviewers grief for being either misleading or ill-informed (or both). Meanwhile, Dean Takahashi had to apologise for a review that suggested Space Marine was a copy of Gears of War, including criticising the portrayal of chain weapons, the Space Marines and the Orks as similar to GoW. When the designers pointed out that ''Warhammer ''is older than GoW (and some other gameplay things) He even made the following stupid statement: " Of course, since the THQ guys had a handy explanation of the difference so readily available, it seemed like they knew they were going to get asked that question." Of course, we know that the reason they had a readily available explanation is because said explanation was the plain, simple truth. He had to retract when what seemed to be the entire online GW community (I'd estimate 2-20%) quite rightly launched at him. Now here's another thing (I really did want to leave on a quiet note): All this talk about everyone being in impoverished hives, slaving away in factories, or dying in massive numbers is irritating. '''Blackdamp used the word 'insulting' regarding my article. '''Well, I think that the talk I'd just mentioned is more insulting. Over the past decades, GW lore writers of both rulebooks and novels have done their best to diversify their portrayal of the the Imperium, and to introduce a diverse portrayal of the Imperium itself. #Nobody thinks in exactly the same way as everyone else. #There are Radical and Puritanical Inquisitors. There's one branch of the Inquisition who want to erase historical records and another that wants to preserve them. #There are hive worlds that are war-torn eternal battlefields (Armageddon) and hive worlds which are so peaceful that joining the PDF is seen as an opportunity to make new friends rather than the chance to battle the enemies of the Imperium (Orestes). In fact, Orestes is so nice that the hives can be considered 'safe', in contrast to the portrayals of them as being hellholes as bad as some feral worlds. #There are highly hideous worlds like Necromunda and then there are the Paradise & Garden Worlds. Remos knows about these- our conversation on the Sacred Grove article mentioned them. These Paradise & Garden Worlds are effectively holiday resorts- the Imperium has a tourist industry and places of rest and relaxation. #Furthermore, there are worlds that are monarchies and worlds where the government is the most powerful family (which varies from actual families to associated gangs who may not be related to each other). #And, of course, there are the worlds that are sexist and the ones that are not. Overall, Blackdamp may have felt insulted by my article that wasn't bothering anybody- even I barely thought about it until Sunday- but their description (and Imposter's to a lesser extent) is the most insulting thing of all. Countless GW staff members and authors have put in countless hours into defying the stereotypes of the Imperium and into trying to explore other areas and bring them to light, and yet we still have people not only take in the stereotypes wholeheartedly but use it to criticise others. You brought up the word 'insulting'. That's what I think the real insult is. I guess this is also time for me to apologise to Imposter for my angry outbursts. Things are now settled. Green47 (talk) 13:45, August 1, 2018 (UTC)